MADPRIEST’S THOUGHT FOR THE DAY

Posted as a comment on Grandmère Mimi's
WOUND UP BIRD blog.

Williams' command that Schori was not to wear her marks of office (mitre) when presiding at Southwark the other day,  is a denial of her episcopal standing. A bishop is the office holder of the church through whom all communions under their authority are validated. As a priest, I cannot legally and authentically recite the eucharistic prayer without the authority of a specific bishop. In theory I am merely an extension of the bishop to allow all his or her flock to receive communion. (This is standard catholic ecclesiology and cannot be argued with by anybody who calls themselves episcopal). Therefore, Williams is de facto stating that he is not in communion with the prime bishop of TEC. Therefore, he is saying that he is not in communion with TEC. Therefore, as prime bishop in the Anglican communion he is stating that TEC are not in communion with the Anglican Communion.

So, what is everybody arguing about? 
The deed is done already.

Comments

MADPRIEST’S THOUGHT FOR THE DAY — 32 Comments

  1. I have a question.

    How does this affect any priests who were ordained since ++Katherine was consecrated to the episcopate? Does this mean that their ordinations, as priests under her authority (for lack of a better term), are invalid in the eyes of the rest of the Anglican Communion?

    Just curious. Really, really curious.

    I hope this question made sense.

  2. Before the CofE decided to ordain women as presbyters, I was glad that I did not have to decide about receiving a license in CofE when friends could not. In the aftermath of Bishop Katharine’s visit to Southwark Cathedral, I was told that not only could women bishops not be licensed as bishops in CofE, but that no one a woman had ordained could be licensed as priest or deacon. If that is in fact true, I would face the same decision were I to visit England again and would decide not to accept a license.

  3. On a completely unrelated topic, Mad Priest, you’ve invited people to buy you a birthday drink without specifying what sort you are likely to require to get through that occasion.

  4. By Rowan’s logic, any priest ordained deacon and / or priest by a female bishop, anywhere in the world (including TEC) is out of communion with the Anglican communion. At the very least, they would not be allowed to preside in England at this time. This applies to anybody confirmed by a female bishop. Also, any oils blessed by a female bishop won’t work. So there’s no point receiving anointing for illness with such oils as you will die and go to hell.

    Williams regards woman bishops as only priests. Therefore, he must believe they cannot ordain or confirm.

  5. Do I really come across as choosy in that department, Cathy?

    I’m very happy to shout you a drink, as we say in Oz, but I just wondered whether what you had in mind was a couple of cheap and cheerful ciders or whether you were more after something in the region of, say, a jereboam of Dom Perignon (don’t know how much it is but in fact that tells you that I probably can’t afford it). That was all.

    Last I heard you were still working your way steadily through a crate of Mimi’s moonshine so if you’re still doing that perhaps anything I might get you might be redundant to requirements anyway.

  6. Actually, champagne is one drink I would never buy (although I’ll pour it down my throat if it’s going for free). But at the same time I don’t drink mass produced beer or cider. A pint of real ale or a glass of farm scrumpy will do just fine.

  7. Well, I have a further question.

    Let’s say TEC’s PB was male, and all other things being the same as they are now (gay bishops & whatnot), Dr. W had told a male PB (when preaching in England) to leave the miter & crozier at home.

    Would this mean that no TEC priest or deacon ordained on the watch of our PB (even if male) would be “legit”?

    See what I’m getting at here?

  8. When people look back on this time in history, Rowan Williams will be thought of as the George Wallace and Lester Maddox (former governors of Alabama and George who were racists and bigot) of the Anglican communion. George Wallace eventually admitted that he was wrong and showed remorse for his actions. Sadly, I don’t think Lester ever changed his mind.

    The ABC of the future will look back in sorrow for the hurts her predecessor caused to women and people who were gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender and their families and friends. She will lead the communion into a loving and inclusive community for all. We look back in sorrow on Rowan.

  9. Tracy
    That’s precisely what our reactionary Forward in Faith movement is saying.
    No female bishop is considered to be validly consecrated. Therefore, no male priest she ordains is validly ordained.
    But they go further than that. They don’t accept male bishops who have consecrated female priest either.

    As to whether a male US bishop would have been allowed to wear his mitre – I believe so. But if you follow the discussions on the relevant blogs, it seems the system is as complicated as anything the French Royal Court ever devised and just as pointless.
    I’d just ignore all that playground nonsense if I were you.

    You have a great Presiding Bishop and most of us over here love her

  10. So all of the following from the Anglican or Porvoo Communions are currently not welcome as far as the CoE is concerned, regardless of being in full communion, which includes completely interchangeable clergy:

    Male bishops who have ordained female bishops

    Female bishops

    Males of any order ordained by a female bishop

    Males or females of any order ordained by a male bishop who was ordained by a female bishop

    Males or females of any order, ordained by anyone of either gender who openly live in a same sex relationship

    Have I missed someone?

  11. To be fair, Dah-veed, I think male bishops who have ordained female bishops will still be bishops as far the Grand Tufti is concerned. However, you have forgotten dogs taken for a walk by female bishops and anyone ordained or confirmed by female bishops. Such canines are not welcome in England.

  12. But as soon as female bishops are legal in England, then all that will magically change in the twinkling of an eye?

    I am waiting for the day a female is consecrated bishop by all female consecrators. And after that, the day a GLBT bishop is consecrated by all GLBT consecrators*. Might the second coming be not far behind?

    *Although we can never be sure that day has not come and gone long ago!

  13. Seriously…at this point, it looks like the UUs are way ahead on the “let’s treat gay people like the human beings they are” game.

    Makes me wonder…

  14. I think a gay, lesbian, bisexual, transsexual should bloody well make his or her mind up as to what they actually are. In my opinion being all four is just being greedy and downright confusing.

  15. Let’s get this nonsense focused on the thing that really matters here — Me!

    So, since I was confirmed by a girlie bishop with perceived ecclesiastical cooties during the term of a girlie PB, am I a confirmed Episcopalian, but not an Anglican? Does that mean if I die on US soil, I go to Heaven, but if I die elsewhere, the other place? Upon arriving to Heaven, will there be an inquiry regarding by whom and when I was confirmed? And, if I’m following this accurately, and I have no reason to believe that I am, if I were to take a pilgrimage to the CoE and were confirmed by a boy bishop, the confirmation would be valid even if the bishop were gay and partnered, as long as he wasn’t having sex with his partner or telling people if he were?

    On a related matter, did anyone ever figure out how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

    I’m thinking that Jesus was way ahead of his time.

  16. It seems to get worse. The PB reported to the Executive Council meeting today that Lambeth hectored her office for proof of her valid ordination to the three orders of ministry. She rightly called this “nonsense” and “bizarre.”

    Obvious Lambeth knows full well that she is validly ordained. If this was a priest that no one had every heard of or knew, fine, ask for her papers. But demanding the papers of our Presiding Bishop? WTF?

  17. I just finished reading all the comments and I think my head wants to explode.

    Good grief!

    It’s all so absurd. Sheesh.

    I’m inclined to agree with MadPriest. Sounds like the deed is done.

  18. I wrote a piece, largely ignored, on stewardship the other day. How can it be good stewardship of the people’s gifts to send them to a church whose primus is not in communion with TEC, and whose canon attack dog dismisses and insults our clerics?

    Time for us to go.
    FWIW
    jimB

  19. Does that mean if I die on US soil, I go to Heaven, but if I die elsewhere, the other place? Upon arriving to Heaven, will there be an inquiry regarding by whom and when I was confirmed?

    It’s beginning to dawn on me that if this is the case the queue to get into Heaven is going to be like UK passport control at Heathrow, only much, much longer.

  20. Jim B: your post wasn’t ignored. I saw it. I just opted to stay quiet about it for the time being.

    But you do have a very serious point. I’m strongly inclined to agree with you.

    And if what Dennis said is really, seriously true:

    The PB reported to the Executive Council meeting today that Lambeth hectored her office for proof of her valid ordination to the three orders of ministry. She rightly called this “nonsense” and “bizarre.”

    Obvious Lambeth knows full well that she is validly ordained. If this was a priest that no one had every heard of or knew, fine, ask for her papers. But demanding the papers of our Presiding Bishop? WTF?

    …this is just insane.

  21. KJ: “And, if I’m following this accurately, and I have no reason to believe that I am, if I were to take a pilgrimage to the CoE and were confirmed by a boy bishop, the confirmation would be valid even if the bishop were gay and partnered, as long as he wasn’t having sex with his partner or telling people if he were?”

    If we think services last too long now, think how long a confirmation would take if the celebrant were busy having sex with his partner during the ceremony!

  22. I notice, Paul (A) that you restricted your comment to the male of the species. I assume that, like me, you would have no problem replacing the Peace with a spot of live femme on femme action.